Description
Joy of Life Surrogacy founder Joy Millan joins Meredith this week to explain the role a surrogacy agency can play in a conception journey.
Follow Meredith’s travel adventures on her YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@msmeredithkate
Transcript
Meredith Kate:
Hey everybody, this is Meredith. Thank you for joining me this week. Again for the backup plan. If you need an intro about who I am and what I’m doing, you got to go back and listen to the other episodes. I can’t keep saying it every week I’m having a baby with my gay best friend. We’re excited about it, we’re stoked and I think it’s going to happen in the new year. Guys, I was hoping it would happen this year, but timing wise and learning all the different procedures and processes of going through it, it takes time. But 2024, I think it’s going to be my year. We’re going to pop this sucker out before I’m 40. We love it. We love to see it. I have to make this intro so short and sweet because I am literally recording this on a boat. I am sailing up the Rhine River, I am looking out the window at. I mean, it’s the waning days of November in Germany and it is. It’s raining, it’s cloudy, but gosh darn it, the Christmas spirit is with me. I’ve already been to like six Christmas markets and it’s only our second day really out in the out in the wild. How many glasses of glue vine have I had? Two today and our first day. I think I had like three or four, so tally it up, I’ll let you know. I’m actually recording a time lapse of where I’m at at this very moment, so I will post that on Instagram so you can see exactly what I saw as I was talking to you. This is the last episode I’m going to publish in 2023, because I am taking next month off to realign myself, get plans scheduled and enjoy the holiday spirit. And also I’m going to be posting some videos on YouTube because I want to give that a try. So I’m recording a ton of shit here, guys. I’ve got travel vlogs for days about all the different places I’m going and I just I can’t wait to share it all and I can’t wait to edit it. So it’s not just footage that sits on a hard drive somewhere. So link is going to be in the description. You can go ahead and follow along there. And then January we see where we’re going with this pod. Maybe it goes a little bit more video oriented. Maybe I’m going to do both, who knows? I just like that. My creative juices are flowing. We’re going whole hog. Oh my gosh, is it starting to snow? Oh man, it’s Christmas, guys. Anyway, back to this week’s episode, y’all, joy Mellon is joining. She is the CEO and founder of Joy of Life. It’s a surrogacy agency. They’re based in California but they are working worldwide, statewide. They really have their act together and the way that they’re working so holistically to help not only folks who are seeking surrogates but surrogates themselves to make sure that they are happy and taken care of and not feeling alone in the process, it’s pretty remarkable. I didn’t know a lot about surrogacy and I feel like I just learned so much in the conversation that I had with them, not only at Prego Expo but also just during this episode. Is surrogacy controversial? I don’t know. Let me know your thoughts. It’s not really something I’ve thought about. I kind of thought it was just like a thing that the ultra rich or celebrities do, but I didn’t think about how it would affect sort of all different kinds of people, even the surrogates themselves, how you know how the money that they get from being a surrogate helps and how connected that they become to the families. And it did give me a bit of a perspective shift because I realized like this whole situation makes for a different kind of modern family, and that’s what I’m going for too. So when I started talking to them about what surrogacy is and how it works, it just I felt really aligned with it. It just kind of it felt so similar to what I was doing in a totally different way. So I’m really excited for you guys to hear this conversation with Joy, and if you’ve used a surrogate or you’ve been a surrogate like I, would just love to hear your perspective. So feel free to shoot an email to info at backuplayingpodcom or, you know, dm on Instagram. It’d be really cool to talk to some more folks about this. You know this is a podcast about modern families and alternative paths to parenthood, so I just would love to love to learn more. I love learning guys. Anyway, I’m watching it snow. I have to go upstairs and put on my listening device so I can hear about the castles that were passing. If you’re looking for a vacation that, oh, here comes mom into the room because I didn’t go up there fast enough to get the listening devices. Say hi, mom, hello, are you enjoying the tour? Yes, but we were also supposed to fill out papers and hand them in at two o’clock. What? Again, all right, I got to go. Love you all. Have fun. Bye, I am so glad to have you on this week. Thank you so much for joining me, joy. Let’s start with a quick little introduction as to who you are and what your company does.
Joy Millan:
Awesome. So my name is Joy. I’m with Joy Elf Life Surrogacy. We are as mentioned. We’re a surrogacy agency, so we help two set of clients on the internet. Parents side we help them to become parents, enjoy the process of having a surrogate carrying their baby until they welcome their new little bundle of joy to their life. We also support them afterwards as well, by telling them what to do as new parents. Don’t worry if something happens like have it rushed or whatsoever, because the majority of our teammates are mothers ourselves, so we have tons of experience to show them. On the other hand, we help those surrogate moms to achieve their dream. Some of them had family members or friends who cannot conceive, so that actually are their calling. So they become a surrogate carry for another family. At the same time they might be, they might have some personal financial goal to achieve to pay off their loan, to be able to open their own little store or to purchase a house, etc. Some of them are single moms have to raise the family, working full time, going to school, etc. Surrogacy could be some something to help them achieve that financial goal in a short term period. So we want to at the very beginning it’s just a surrogacy agency connect families, as right now we see ourselves more like a solution to a lot of people who parents is a solution to become parents for surrogate is a solution to help them achieve a different quality, a higher quality of life that is so wide ranging and I’m so kind of astounded by everything that you guys are doing.
Meredith Kate:
I was really excited to talk to your team at the Prego Expo because I know so little about Sorghisi and I don’t think it’s going to be a part of what I need to do. But, who knows, like you really have no idea what life brings you and I could totally see myself, you know, if I didn’t want children or you know, there’s like some kind of multiverse where I could see myself doing this for a friend or something, and it just it wasn’t ever something I really thought about until I talked to your team. And then suddenly my mind opened up so wide and when I talked to Brianna, who was there, and she explained to me how she supports the mothers because my thought process when I came up to your booth was that you know, maybe you just do some matching stuff for couples who are looking for a Sorghisi. But when I thought about all of the work that a Sorghisi has to go through, I was totally blown away and I was so touched and heart-warmed to see everything that you guys do and how passionate everybody that you work with is about this and their work. It was really cool to see on your website your whole team is women, isn’t it?
Joy Millan:
Yes, yes, so we’re all women. Most of them, like I mentioned, are mothers, so we can’t understand the other mother. When I started the business I wasn’t. I was a mom, so I tried to stand in the shoe. I know being a mom is really hard to balance, their work, to balance, you know, sorghisi stuff. But after I have my children I really feel for those Sorghia moms that they’re they’re sacrificing for everybody, that they are helping for their family, be there for their children. We had a Sorghia mom have to make to a medical screening but nobody can watch their children. They have to bring their kids to the, to the clinic, and glad that we were there, we were watching the kids for them, and now I’ve just feel like that’s a really huge help, like sometimes I’m just struggling with. You know kids and work too. Imagine they have to add something to their life, so that’s, I appreciate them more. So, as for now, we just want to make the company a mother friendly environment. Even a community we’re trying to build is a mother friendly, that the Sorghia could meet each other, they could help each other. We want to build a network that one day in the future maybe they can have somebody in their location that can help them not just Sorghisi related, but just, you know, run errands or watch the kids, because we’re just like very closely connected. So sorry, I guess.
Meredith Kate:
Yeah, you guys get it totally. How long has your company been around and how did you start doing this?
Joy Millan:
We’ve been around since 2017, august, so it’s been six years and we have grown from one person. I had some family help me to start and, since I was working for a fertility doctor, the network, the connections I had previously helped us, lifted us too, and so right now we have 19 people that in the US. We also have another office in China. As you may tell that I was born and raised in China, so we had other offices there. Just do translation work. We had so many independent parents that are interested but they do not have a resource. Or we hear some heartbreaking stories that they put all their life saving money into this company and the company closed out, that they just lose everything. They don’t have the money or a child.
Meredith Kate:
Wow, wow, so you work in the US and China.
Joy Millan:
Then Sorghisi is not allowed in China. Oh, okay, I always yeah, I always joke to my mom. I was like when I visit you guys, I’m going to be arrested one day because it’s not allowed there. A lot of people feel this is like selling your uterus. There are a lot of ethics, stuff behind it, but for me, honestly, I just feel if I’m a mother, I want to provide everything good for my family and to help another family. I see so many parents are struggling. As I was a clinical coordinator, we had a couple that are going through a divorce. Their parents forced them to because they cannot have children together. It’s not because any of them have issues, it’s just like you know. It’s like undefined infertility. A lot of people just had that. They’re going through IVF and then have a surgery to get to carry for them and at the end of the year they have a baby and their marriage was saved. So why not Like it? Just to me, it’s like as long as we’re doing something like good for the world, good for our family, saving our family, then it’s worse to do and, of course, being protected by law. So that’s why our company only does legal stuff, of course like you know surrogacy friendly states. We go everything. We do not cut corners. There is no like gray areas in our company. Everybody transparent. That’s why we’re so proud and honored. We’re into the parents ask us do you do this? And that we are always like, we have a great team, that we always follow the rules. So you don’t have to worry. By the end of the day, your names are not going to be on the birth certificate.
Meredith Kate:
Right, and so how many people work for you now?
Joy Millan:
And together would it be 25?.
Meredith Kate:
That’s wild. I mean, that’s 25 people that are going to cross the Gs and dot the I’s for you. And something that I found with my own story is that it’s difficult for me to find some of the answers, and I just started working with a fertility company and was blown away by working with somebody and knowing like, oh, they’re the professionals, they’re already going to know, they’ve experienced this. I may think my story is super special, and it is, but that doesn’t mean other people haven’t done it. That answer has already been spelled out. So it’s so great that you exist. And you said you were founded in 2017 and you were working with a fertility doctor at that point. So how did you move from before that, before that, before that? So how did you get into doing this and running your own company? Like, I think? You know? I know this is a podcast about babies and stuff, but I’m fascinated by, like, business and entrepreneurship and women who are ambitious, so I’m so excited to hear how you started.
Joy Millan:
Yeah, I would say, to be an entrepreneur, it doesn’t. It definitely needs a lot of courage and just at one point you have to do it and you cannot have any backup of plan. So, because sometimes you know, if thinking too much, I still right now I feel, if I go all over again, I may not step out, but just because I feel as one person, I only can help a certain amount of family. But by having a team, having a community, we can reach out to thousands, millions. Life that we want to do, or if we want to establish some kind of standard or you know, this is what we should do in surrogacy then more people are going to hear our voice. I was back in 2016, before I started this company. I was a translator, so some of my aunt and the parents there from China they do not speak English at all At that time they want me to go to their delivery to help them translate, to get paperwork. I was. It was fun. Like you know, I don’t have children, and then me and my husband were just dating at that time, so I have plenty of time off my own. I was like, okay, sure, I would go. So it was a delivery in Reading. It’s about like 10 hours away from Los Angeles. So we drove there and the baby was born through C-section, so he is perfectly fine, Can be dismissed the next day. But the surrogate had him through C-section so she had to stay a little bit longer. And then the night before we leave we asked the surrogate if she want to, you know, hold a baby or anything like. Because we know the parents once they leave they never going to go back and, like I said, they are from a country that have that policy. They cannot even tell anybody, so they are going to pretend this is their own and I think the surrogate knew that and she just didn’t want to have any attachment, so she refused to hold the baby. The next day in the morning it’s like four or five o’clock we’re trying to leave so we can get back in Los Angeles on time we heard a soft knock on the door. She literally walked from her room to ours it’s like separated by a long hallway, had to walk like a good five to 10 minutes. So she came, yeah, and then nobody were there, not even nurse. You wouldn’t imagine that somebody would be there assist her.
Meredith Kate:
Yeah, let’s not talk about the American health system sometimes. Yeah.
Joy Millan:
So she was there and then it’s just a really sad moment. It’s so dark and she is leaning on the door. She asked if she could hold the baby and we were like, of course, enjoy him, and then we give her the baby. She rocked him and scan his face, trying to memorize that Seems like she’s scanning it’s the last time to see him. And then just afterwards she passed, she gave back the baby and she turned around. That image is always in my head she just right hand, right up, wave to us and the left hand she is wiping her tears. She was literally crying and walking back to her room Nobody there. I wanted to go say something, but I feel it’s not my place to say anything. And I was so new, it was my first delivery and I was like okay, my parents the same to the parent need my help. I really want to like split myself in half. So it’s just very heartbreaking. And then, after a year or two, there was a fire in Northern California, like San Francisco area, I believe Sacramento area. So I reached out to see how she’s doing. I don’t think she messaged me back, but that was my last message with her. I guess I just feel you know, there are some connections that you made. You care for a person, that she did such a big thing. You just want the best for her life. You want to do something for her.
Meredith Kate:
Yeah, I’ve had moments like that too, cause I it’s going to sound so trivial after the story you just told, but a story with Disney world, and I would have people come up to me who, like, it was the first vacation they had since they lost a child, or it was the first vacation they had since their daughter had been in Iraq and she had just come back from the war. This was like 15 years ago and being able to just you’re like, you just want to do any small thing that you can to make that moment easier or more special or something you know, or thank them for their service, or you know, and I had the ability and the role that I was in at the time there to do some really incredible things. But then there are some people who they have no idea how much they touch you. You know they walk out that door and they go back to their hometown or whatever, and you’re like a different person because of that and sometimes it’s really hard because you want to make that connection and like hold on to it because you’re like, you’re the person that like changed everything for me and it was this small minute, little thing, but you’re it for me and I think it’s so special that you took a moment that meant that much to you and not to get too like heartfelt ooey gooey, but you know you took a moment that meant so much to you and created such a beautiful thing from it and so good job, joy, thank you. This is really wonderful, thank you. And it’s so cool too that you, you are working with both sides. Because it’s so cool, because I guess I would just think that a surrogacy agency would either be just for the surrogates or just for the parents. Do you provide just one-way services? Sometimes, if that’s necessary, like if somebody, maybe there are parents who have already picked a surrogate and they have all the support they need, but the surrogate is like what do I do? Where do I go? Can they contact?
Joy Millan:
you for that. So as of right now we sometimes work with the Internet Parent Agent which is dedicated to focus on the Internet Parent side. Then we will just cut off that Internet Parent Support system. We will just support the surrogate. We’re seeing the company. We have two systems so both of them will get enough equal attention. For management job is we find a balance. We don’t want because it is really hard, like you can’t pick sites. The other person would definitely feel it if she feel less important in this relationship. So we assign Internet Parent, a coordinator and a surrogate coordinator because we also learn from our own mistake. I used to just be one for Internet Parent and surrogate. It’s really hard and it’s hard for the coordinator too, because maybe I could try to be fair. But then sometimes the coordinator, if she has been Internet Parent herself, then she would stand in Internet Parent’s shoe more. If a person is in the surrogate shoe more, then she wouldn’t hear the Internet Parent’s voice. So it’s like assigning each party a turning to. Each of us will protect our client right and benefit. If there are any conflict arise, we just have a good argument. Within our company we find the best solution. Sometimes it means we have to eat, a cost which we shouldn’t. But we just want the best journey. We want it to be smooth for both parties because both of them. Surrogacy is the last choice. If a parent could carry a baby, who would want her baby to be carried by somebody else? If a surrogate, if she could just enjoy her life she want to spend all her time? Who want to go through a birth just to earn 50, 60, $70,000, they had no choice to do that. So we respect it and we want them to enjoy the most. We don’t want the little hiccups to ruin their best moment.
Meredith Kate:
Right, so what is the first step of it all look like when somebody contacts you and says I want to use the surrogate? I’ve been really surprised, in starting the fertility journey that the company I’ve been working with has been very like. Here’s your checklist. Here are all the things you do, and there’s stuff that I’m doing now, like I talked to a counselor and I had obviously the doctor’s appointments and stuff like that, but there’s all this different stuff that I didn’t expect to see as I was starting this. So what does that first contact look like?
Joy Millan:
For internet parents. The first contact is usually find out where they are at in their fertility journey Some of them don’t even have embryos make need suggestions to look for a doctor. Some of them already have embryos. Then we will just ask them. You know the grade and also their preference in surrogates. Usually, when internet parents only have one embryo, we would suggest them to have to work with somebody or fertile Meaning if the surrogate have multiple children or within the last two years, she’s going to be the best candidate, like if everything else the same as somebody else. So we will try to match them with someone that they will spend more time or money with. So that’s the first step to have an initial consultation with internet parents. We go over so we have a structure, going over the company background, the service we’re going to provide, and then we will go over the cost breakdown so they will need to know how much money they are expecting. Surrogacy is not cheap. We don’t want to hook them up with a low price and then all of a sudden give them a surprise. We include everything in that packet. So if you know one thousand, five thousand is going to be a deal breaker, we would suggest them to think about it, because there are a lot of things that are unenforceable in this journey. They really, really have to be ready, yeah, otherwise it’s going to be nerve wracking for them as well.
Meredith Kate:
There’s no black Friday sale on this right.
Joy Millan:
We do give promotion. We do give like a discount from our ability that we never give discount upfront because we know this is at least a 20 months journey with them If everything goes well, because four or five months of matching get them prepared, sign the legal contract, nine months of pregnancy, including that one month’s injection to build up lining, and then we also provide six months postpartum care. So if the parents need suggestions about baby feeding, breast milk or bills they receive, they don’t understand it. We are always there and our service doesn’t end Like, even though we’ll code it 20 months but it doesn’t really end. I still get a message from my internet. Parents ask me about kindergarten because my kid are similar age as hers. So I was like, okay, this is how I search kindergarten. Yeah.
Meredith Kate:
You can’t keep calling them intended parents at that point. Joy, there’s, there’ll be on that, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s so wonderful, oh I have an internet.
Joy Millan:
Mother want me to be the godmother for their kids. I was like I don’t know if I’m qualified, but I just feel very like a flattered yeah yeah. I mean you’re a person.
Meredith Kate:
I can’t imagine the kinds of cards you’re getting around the holiday season. Huh.
Joy Millan:
Yeah.
Meredith Kate:
Yeah, a lot of little baby pictures?
Joy Millan:
Yeah, yeah, yes, so we’re having to the parents mail us printed photos? Yeah, so to see how their kids are growing.
Meredith Kate:
How does that feel? Like what is the? I mean obviously no details, but like what’s the oldest child? Now that you kind of helped facilitate.
Joy Millan:
If it includes the ones that I started to working for to live, feel the probably a good six, seven years old, because I’m being this feel for about eight years now.
Meredith Kate:
How does that feel?
Joy Millan:
I still remember the first time I see a flicker of heartbeat in the ultrasound yeah, it just like have a butterfly in your stomach.
Meredith Kate:
Yeah, and then every time when I hold a little baby.
Joy Millan:
At first I get scared because they’re like, they’re so fragile, I don’t want to break them. And now it’s like let me do it, give it to me now. Yeah, yeah.
Meredith Kate:
That’s so wonderful.
Joy Millan:
Definitely accomplished. Yeah, yeah.
Meredith Kate:
So you work. You’re based in California, but you’re working all over the United States as well. Right, yeah, yes, and our goal is to work nationwide.
Joy Millan:
Just provide job opportunity, provide connections, provide just every access to our surrogates and internet parents, no matter where they are.
Meredith Kate:
Right, and in talking to some of your employees too, they mentioned that they are hopping on planes to go to these different appointments and stuff too right.
Joy Millan:
Yes, no matter where they are, we’re always going to go to their medical screening transfer, anatomy scan and delivery. So at least those four milestones. We do not charge extra for that from the internet, parents, or adding extra for the surrogate. We just love to be there because those are pretty big moments and it gives a little time space in between, so we’re not bugging them all the time, but two, three months in between is a good time for us to reconnect with.
Meredith Kate:
Yeah, I mean I went to. I just had my fertility checked last week before I left for my holiday trip and I’m fine with doctor’s appointments I don’t get weird or jumpy about them but I came out of it and it was a good fertility check. By the way, I have 12 follicles which I’m very excited and proud of each one of those. That’s good, thank you. But I came out of it and I’m a very independent person and the first thing I wanted to do was tell people. I wanted somebody to be around, to be excited for me and to just sit down and chat about it. And I called. The first person I always called was my mom and I tried calling Michael, my friend who I’m having the baby with, and I tried calling a couple other friends, but it was just that weird time where everybody was doing a thing and they weren’t able to pick up and I was like, oh, now I get why joy of life goes to those appointments, because even if it’s good news, you still want somebody there to be excited with. Or if it’s emotional, obviously for a circuit it might be a little bit different to have somebody to just give a squeeze to or grab a tissue from. That’s really important thing. So I just think what you’re doing is so cool, thank you. So we’re talking about all the fantastic and wonderful aspects of this and the parts that are happy, maybe emotional too, but I’m sure there are bad moments too, and hopefully not often. So how do you guys manage those moments and help intended parents? Answer gets through those.
Joy Millan:
Definitely, if everything goes well, they wouldn’t need us. I think as an agency, our valuable point is to give emotional value to those families as us. We have a very straightforward protocol of communication. We do updates every week, at least a minimum of twice, two times. We also have monthly calls with the circuit monthly meeting. We call it CARES program C-A-R-E-S. It stands for coaching, access and resources for empowered surrogacy. So we have a life coach in that meeting. Teach them some life skills, how to even its parenting, financing relationship with a partner because it’s carrying. When I get pregnant I get super emotional and I still remember my husband sitting on the stairs like trying to pull out his hair. So imagine that this woman is carrying somebody else’s child, but her emotion actually dumped on her own family. We want her to not to feel guilty. We want to help them to maintain a stable relationship with her partner too. Because we did have surrogate once through divorce, through her journey. We just see that as something that we could be in there to help. So we provide those life coaching sessions for our surrogates, as right now and next year we’re going to open this opportunity to our internet parents too, because they’re and it’s going to be a different story. They’re going to become new parents, so definitely parenting skills are what they need, maybe two months before the baby is here. So, yeah, we’re excited for that and also with our resources experience. We just want to shorten their waiting period before they can meet their children, because they’re a lot of enforceable things that could happen.
Meredith Kate:
Yeah, something that’s kind of come up as I’m talking to you too is like this is obviously not a one-size-fits-all opportunity, right, like every couple or person or surrogate that you’re working with, they all have totally different lives and totally different circumstances. So Do you ever work with parents who allow the surrogate to be a part of their life going forward, or maybe Didn’t want that, but then kind of change their minds throughout it? Like how do those relationships kind of adjust?
Joy Millan:
Yeah, we definitely had a Internet parents a Little iffy about whether they want to tell their kids about surrogacy or if they want to continue. We always tell them it’s a 20 months long journey. We could match you someone that open to no contact after delivery. But a lot of times we see into the parents change their mind. Only if you know they’re super Straight, like strict about not telling their kids, like they from those country that can’t even allow to be talked about. We see into the parents change their mind. They see how much care and love that surrogate and her family provide to that little baby. They see the connection between the onboard child and the surrogate, her own children. So it changed their mind. They exchange, you know, their contact after Sending photos and etc. Sometimes we don’t even get like that many photos but surrogate would be like look, the kid is born, like you know, celebrating four years old, etc. We’re just really happy for them because at that point I think the relationship is theirs. We don’t want to be a third wheel In between. It shouldn’t. You know, goes smoothly. They shouldn’t feel any pressure that I have to send this because joy, awful life is watching.
Meredith Kate:
So yeah, I mean this is fantastic, like this is all. I mean it’s so cool what you do and I’m so grateful to have been able to chat with you. If people want to learn more about your company or maybe get in touch, how should they go about doing that?
Joy Millan:
the best way, I would say our contact are everywhere. There is no best way Instagram, facebook, our phone number. If nobody pick up, I’m the first one in the queue. So if anybody want to talk to me, yeah, yeah, just call the number and stay on the line. I will be the one pick up. I love I love being involved in the day-to-day work to just feel you know you’re surrounded by Love and care. Right, one one story I want to share though COVID. When COVID hit, I go there. There is a lacking of mask in the US. We actually have an international internet parents, male masks and Hygiene’s to their surrogate moms, like even after delivery, they just thought about them and just say hope your families are okay. And hear a box in boxes off Gloves, masks and stuff and it just free off charge. Those are all gifts. So I just feel very touched by those connections, like they feel for somebody else and they feel Appreciated all their lifelong. Yeah and it just you know it’s good cause and it make you feel there there is true love in the world, Not just a movie movie.
Meredith Kate:
Yeah, joy of life is a very apt title for your company. Yeah.
Joy Millan:
Yeah, I don’t know if we the name made us more joyful or we made the name more meaningful.
Meredith Kate:
Yeah, yeah, what you get is what you give. So thank you so much for joining. And people can go to joy of life comm too. That’s the probably the good starting spot, because you’ve got the phone numbers and social media and everything there too. Wonderful. Yeah Well, thank you so much.
Joy Millan:
Yeah, of course, have a nice day.
Meredith Kate:
The backup plan is created produced and hosted by me, meredith Kate Julian Hagen’s is my co-producer. You can find us on social media at backup plan pod. The best place to get updates is to sign up for our newsletter at backup plan podcom, where we also post all episodes, show notes and transplants. Thank you for listening.
